Curse

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

You were able to complete all content on what we consider a sub-par option. You won the game.
If this was truly a sub-par option, you'd fail.

don't know about you, but i consider primairy mesmer + mesmer skills to be sub-par, mostly the skills though. and they're connected to the fact of being primairy mes, so...
i haven't brought any mesmer skills there, not even for e-management. if i had another primairy - ANY other primairy, even derv tbh - i'd be able to bring a mix of primairy, secondary and pve. as a mesmer, i've tried to bring several mesmery builds, then tried mesmery e-management and some more or less useful stuff, but it worked out only if i completely disregarded my main profession and went on sin+pve in case of duncan and ele+pve in case of mallyx.
if mesmer wasn't inferior, i would use my main more often, especially there.

still, i wouldn't fail - i'm only 1/8 of the team. but if i brought five mesmers - we probably would have no chance at those locations. on the other hand, five monks...

Master Mxyzptlk · Apr 15, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

one of the things that always frightens me about balancing mesmers is the cheating skills (MoR, Echo, Keystone signet, etc.), the skills that break the normal rules.

A lot of the mesmer skills have long recharges, because mesmers brought MoR (for a while, the only valuable elite). So the skill recharges were extended to balance them with MoR. Then MoR was required to make those skills useful, but you couldn't balance everything to MoR, so MoR was nerfed to next to useless (see WoQ, way better). then only a couple skill recharges were reduced, the rest were still long. Look what happened when they dropped the recharge on keystone signet. Suddenly signets were terrifyingly awesome. Too much. Then they reverted that, signets became next to useless again.

I don't know the best way to deal with this, but please don't force our choices of elites into MoR to deal with recharges (or AP now that MoR is dead), or away from them like keystone signet because they're too dangerous so the only other option is useless.

Not that there aren't a pile of useless non-cheating skills, elite or otherwise.

Gill Halendt · Apr 15, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Take hammers.
Pre-buff.
Throw SoH on them.
GDW.
Orders.
Barbs.
MoP.
Cracked Armour.
EBSoH.
Ancestor's Rage the guy.
Asuran Scan.
All while you can run SY!

So, basically, melee is overpowered... because you can devote half a team to BUFF a melee physical and then things work wonders... Really?

You do realize that you mentioned up to 9 skills out of 3 professions just to buff one single character? You do realize that SY! is easily shutdown by blocks, blind, hexes, adren-denial? So, that implies one more slot to have someone keeping the SY!-spammers clean. SY! on melee physicals is hardly mantainable, so you also need one or two more guys on the frontline to help spamming. Buffs can't be mantained efficiently on all of them tough. And there you have it, a full team, and let's not forget that this requires pretty much a full-human setup to work properly. Go figure, this full team works better than, say, pretty much every solo build.

That's called "sinergy", not "overpowered"... Melee isn't overpowered by itself, a shitton of buffs on a melee character don't make it overpowered either.

We can argue about the game being centered on melee physicals, but then again, melee is highly represented by 1/3 of the available professions (and then we have 2 more ranged physicals that could benefit from some of those buffs), so you can't call a thing requiring mostly human players and all the imaginable buffs in the game "overpowered"...

byteme! · Apr 15, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Take hammers.
Pre-buff.
Throw SoH on them.
GDW.
Orders.
Barbs.
MoP.
Cracked Armour.
EBSoH.
Ancestor's Rage the guy.
Asuran Scan.
All while you can run SY!

And what did the update bring?
You buffed hammers.
You buffed Blood which already had Orders which now means more options.
You buffed AR.

And you are now going against monsters that have 600HP while you do 100-200 damage per hit (pre-AS).

Your argument is no different then me picking out 10 commonly known good skills that have some resemblance of synergy onto a team build and calling it overpowered. It's not like you can fit all that onto 1 profession.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Gill Halendt · Apr 15, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When I run my assassin with h/h, I normally just run Splinter, AR and SoH.
And yet, even with a team that is far from being optimal - I am able to achieve results that I don't think should be possible.

Why not?

Those three buffs don't seem anything to write home about to me. And you need someone just to mantain SoH on you - easily stripped. Playing a overbuffed physical is efficient, but it's just proportional to the efforts needed to have all of these buffs on you.

The availability of even more buffs doesn't make a role or category overpowered. When you need a full party made of human players, all devoted to pumping up the damage dealt by one single character, it's not overpowered to me, it's just well focused and efficient, but also easy to disrupt. I would call physicals "overpowered" if they could do this all by themselves, but they can't, and they can't even with just heroes in their team...

So... I can assume that stacking Visions of Regret with Wastrel's Worry, Backfire, Empathy, Spiteful Spirit, Insidious Parasite, Pain Inverter, all while under the effects of Intensity makes reactive hexing great, doesn't it? It even just takes two slots instead of 6+!

reaper with no name · Apr 15, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Rahja, I have one question.

Why aren't you the head of community relations?

WarcryOfTruth · Apr 15, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

it would be nice to be able to get into a pug with my mesmers....that would be a great big change in my book----am looking forward to this as I have a mesmer working towards gwamm.

Why aren't you able to get into a pug as a mesmer? I'd take a mesmer into any pug of mine most def!

Allamorph · Apr 15, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I am going to point out something here, and I am going to do so in a slightly obnoxious manner because it was missed the first time, and it was missed again when I pointed it out previously, so I'm beginning to wonder if people are a tad dense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

I want to see not how people on a forum (which is typically a place for people that have only negative feedback come) react,....

Translation: The most vocal people here are bitter malcontents. And their opinions are being treated accordingly.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And yet, even with a team that is far from being optimal - I am able to achieve results that I don't think should be possible.

Right. That you don't think should be possible.

I am not under the impression currently that you are the be-all and end-all of mmo gaming. I am also not under the impression, and I think several people here would agree, that your opinion is merely opinion, and will continue to be merely opinion regardless of how long and how hard you tout otherwise.

If being able to kill things in nasty and creative ways makes you unable to enjoy the game, try dropping your attribute levels a tad. That's nerfing your physicals, so you stay happy, and the rest of the game can progress without you.

Also remember that when you're over there playing with yourself—and your h/h—that you're simulating a team where the only difference is that you have complete control over half the team and intellectual control over the other half. In essence, you are neither a solo player nor a contributor to the team. You are the entire team. So any analogies you can make are tinged with your habit of setting up the entire team to benefit you (as the physical damage dealer) instead of actual team synergy.

Other than that, if you actually wanted your ideas listened to I would have assumed you'd know enough to suggest instead of demand. People tend to be more willing to work with you if you don't talk to them like they have shit for brains (even if they do have shit for brains; I'm not calling either way here). As it stands, I'm seeing Rahja being as respectful as they can and making a good deal of sense, and I'm seeing you being an overbearing ass and making a small bit of sense strung together with claims that you can't make.

Guess who's going to get listened to?

Cuilan · Apr 15, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

The most vocal people here are bitter malcontents.

Well, why would someone listen to a troll without a conclusion on the original topic? The "bitter malcontents" still care and they're likely "bitter" because they see what's happening. If Anet and the Test Krewe don't have "shit for brains" they'd be able to consider things regardless.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

JDRyder · Apr 15, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A.Net decided that they were too lazy to actually develop content so they took the easy road and gave us a shitload of grind.

Well no, they pretty much stopped making content, which you really cant blame them for that. The players are the people who make this a grind with their need for PvX builds rather than making their own or even doing byob.

"To put this as bluntly as possible" if you're ever grinding in this game, its due to your own lack of creativity and or willingness to stop grinding with farming builds.

Does GW have some grinding in it? Sure, but compared to other MMOs its painting something everyday vs painting the same tree everyday.

Allamorph · Apr 15, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

For that matter, working a 9-to-5 job five days a week should be considered grinding, since you're doing essentially the same thing 5/7 days over and over again just to build up your cash count so you can buy those consumables you need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Well, why would someone listen to a troll without a conclusion on the original topic?

Also because my input on the topic was already established. Why the frick would I say the same thing every time I post just so each post has a conclusion to the original topic?

Cuilan · Apr 15, 2010, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

Also because my input on the topic was already established. Why the frick would I say the same thing every time I post just so each post has a conclusion to the original topic?

Your only feedback was basically "don't be negative, m'kay?" in this topic.

Allamorph · Apr 15, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Also drugs are bad. Don't do them. (I think you're confusing "don't be negative" for "don't be an arrogant ass", though, which is slightly different.)

But considering I approach most everything in more of an "I never know 'til afterwards" mindset, I don't particularly feel like rendering judgment before seeing the evidence, what since I am one of those nonexistent new players who hasn't yet had time to be jaded.

Lord Sojar · Apr 15, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

one of the things that always frightens me about balancing mesmers is the cheating skills (MoR, Echo, Keystone signet, etc.), the skills that break the normal rules.

A lot of the mesmer skills have long recharges, because mesmers brought MoR (for a while, the only valuable elite). So the skill recharges were extended to balance them with MoR. Then MoR was required to make those skills useful, but you couldn't balance everything to MoR, so MoR was nerfed to next to useless (see WoQ, way better). then only a couple skill recharges were reduced, the rest were still long. Look what happened when they dropped the recharge on keystone signet. Suddenly signets were terrifyingly awesome. Too much. Then they reverted that, signets became next to useless again.

I don't know the best way to deal with this, but please don't force our choices of elites into MoR to deal with recharges (or AP now that MoR is dead), or away from them like keystone signet because they're too dangerous so the only other option is useless.

Not that there aren't a pile of useless non-cheating skills, elite or otherwise.

Don't worry, we are trying to work the game away from having a niche selections of elites that are the only worthwhile ones. These buffs encompass a huge number of skills, and they aren't dart board in approach. Also, keep in mind that when we do skill balances, we try to avoid PvE and PvP splits, as that's more overhead on the game, and is confusing to have so many splits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

Translation: The most vocal people here are bitter malcontents. And their opinions are being treated accordingly.

Err... no, I specifically mentioned that I look at this thread everyday and look for feedback that is:

Possible to be implemented
Is well thought out, not "I wish..." pipe dreams
Is clear and concise
Is practical and rational

Does that put me in a position of being judgmental? Yep.... but at least I'm bothering to seek external feedback from multiple sources, which includes taking input from a fan forum; which, on average, draws those unhappy with game play or mechanics compared to those happy with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Rahja, I have one question.

Why aren't you the head of community relations?

Because I wouldn't want to be, even if offered, and keep this in mind; I do not work for ANET, and I cannot speak for them, nor do I represent them in any fashion. These views are my own, through and through.

Master Mxyzptlk · Apr 15, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

For that matter, working a 9-to-5 job five days a week should be considered grinding, since you're doing essentially the same thing 5/7 days over and over again just to build up your cash count so you can buy those consumables you need.

No, thats not entirely accurate, because many people are not performing the same exact task over and over. you may be performing similar tasks, or generic tasks, but thats more the equivalent of "my elementalist does nothing but cast spells". The grind everyone complains about (especially PvE skill titles) is more like a car mechanic being forced to repair the same problem on the same car one thousand times before ford will let him work on ford models. Then he has to turn around and do the same thing for toyota. Once he's done the thousand cars, then he can start doing his job and working on different problems on different cars. And yes, you could stop before maxing it, and that car mechanic can put a sign out after 500 cars that says "can repair ford cars, just not well"

Not really on topic, but the grind in guildwars irks me greatly.

more on topic. I think a large part of the mesmer improvements need to focus on fast casting. Basically mesmers get punched a lot because they're abused as a secondary (almost every inspiration nerf, and a good deal of others, CoP was by E/Me and N/Me, distortion, Mantras, hexbreaker, etc.). Fast Casting, the attribute that cannot be abused by secondaries, had crap for skills, some of which are outdated (cast signets faster, when fast casting does that normally) or are just crap to begin with.

Especially when mindbender exists. I can be a E/Me with the equivalent of 12 in fast casting, with no attribute point cost and access to energy storage. Plus, I move faster. I use signets slower, but I don't care, since what signets would I use anyway?

a lot of the abused secondary skills could be moved to fast casting and unnerfed. Distortion was abused by mindblast eles, so move it to fast casting, and you're fine. Don't nerf it so the mesmers cant use it. just one example.

end of overly verbose rant.

MagmaRed · Apr 15, 2010, 08:30 PM // 20:30

The only thing I can forsee making Mesmer a class PUGs would start using on a regular basis is a change to Fast Casting. Skill changes can be nice, but when any class can make use of those skills and only miss 1-4 attribute points from runes/armor, it doesn't fix the problem. Fast Casting has little to no problem in PvP, but for PvE there isn't much use from it. Making a split attribute isn't something I expect they would do, nor do I want them to.

I'd be happier to see a change to Fast Casting that dealt with energy, recharge, or even armor. Of all the class specific armor insignias, Mesmer is the class I find the worst. Not many builds focus on signets, so Artificer's isn't going to offer much. Fast Casting means you are spending less time casting spells, so Virtuoso's isn't going to do much either. The long recharge times do make good use of Prodigy's, but not many people want to rely on multiple long recharge spells, so will select a build with mostly fast recharging skills. Perhaps reword the insignias and Fast Casting together to create a nice option for armor use. And anyone who knows how to make a good build knows that armor is part of that equation.

NerfHerder · Apr 15, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Is this thread still about mesmer specualtion?

Speaking of which, I have seen alot of good recommendations. I would be happy if all the mesmer PvE buffs were only usable by a Mesmer. I'd love to use a full Mesmer skill set and be an asset to my team. I know some mesmer builds are viable, but it would be nice if we could see LF Mesmer in the search party menu. Im not saying they should be OP as Rts are but it would be nice if they were as wanted in a group. Mesmers really are a unique class, and are alot of fun to use. I enjoy Mesmers because they are like the thinking mans profession, you dont just set up spirits and watch everyone else do all the work.